[Bananafish] Nine Stories

Fri Oct 20 14:10:31 EDT 2006

The million dollar question Kenny; Who is better off?  The orange peel
drifting out of the field of view (and reality?) or ill-dressed Teddy
ephemerally viewing their passing?  When Teddy our intrepid orange peel
passes noisily out of view at the edge of our porthole I can hardly
imagine any hope for the bobbing skin of a fruit passing out of reach of
our senses.  Who is hoping what?

Daniel

Daniel, I'd love to hear your thoughts on Flaubert.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <bananafish-request at lists.bway.net>
To: <bananafish at lists.bway.net>
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 12:00 PM
Subject: bananafish Digest, Vol 27, Issue 8

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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: Nine Stories (Kenneth)
>   2. Re: Nine Stories (Yocum, Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE)
>   3. Re: Nine Stories (James Rovira)
>   4. Re: Nine Stories (Yocum, Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 12:44:46 -0400
> From: "Kenneth" <kenny2 at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [Bananafish] Nine Stories
> To: <bananafish at lists.bway.net>
> Message-ID: <004e01c6f39d$e387f130$2d01a8c0 at Monster>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
> reply-type=original
>
> James, I'm not sure if you read my original response.
> In it, I said that "Pretty Mouth" was situated in the collection out of 
> time
> and it's placement was the major drawback of placing the stories in the
> order they were published. It also mentioned "Teddy" as being included in
> the collection before Salinger had actually finished the story. The
> implications of that little maneaver should be obvious. Regardless of its
> ending, "Teddy" is a statement of faith - and there is no faith without
> hope.
> I think that Salinger paints "painful, blunt stupidity" as being an
> infection of the world that we live in and the challange of his characters
> is to connect with their own humanity (and maybe some dignity, while 
> they're
> at it) despite it. Those that manage to find value in this silly world 
> often
> blunder their way to that place. But I think we should evaluate these
> characters on the basis of how we leave them rather than the way they
> stumble about. Are they better off at the story's end than they were at 
> the
> begining? If so, it's a clear message of hope and we can forgive Boo Boo 
> and
> Lionel and Sergeant X and Esme and even Ginnie Mannox and John Smith for
> having to locate hope rather than calmly posessing it from the begining
> because they are mystic-savants.
>
> Kenneth
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <bananafish-request at lists.bway.net>
> To: <bananafish at lists.bway.net>
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 12:00 PM
> Subject: bananafish Digest, Vol 27, Issue 7
>
>
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>> [bananafish digest]
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>   1. Re: Nine stories (Kenneth)
>>   2. Re: Nine stories (James Rovira)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 16:59:27 -0400
>> From: "Kenneth" <kenny2 at verizon.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Bananafish] Nine stories
>> To: <bananafish at lists.bway.net>
>> Message-ID: <003701c6f2f8$4d473000$2d01a8c0 at Monster>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
>> reply-type=original
>>
>> Wenke's an ass. Of course there's a pliable interconnection between the
>> nine
>> stories, they were written by the same author in a relatively short space
>> of
>> time. The nine stories show a transformation of philosophy as Salinger
>> moved
>> from despondancy to hope.
>> Now, forget "Blue Melody." Imagine that Salinger had included "A Girl I
>> Knew" in Nine Stories. By any account, chronologically or by publicarion
>> date, it would have been the first story in the book and everyone would
>> have
>> interpreted "Bananafish" in light of "A Girl I Knew."
>> Salinger was correct to leave that story out of the collection. It was
>> either "A Girl I Knew" or "Bananafish."
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: <bananafish-request at lists.bway.net>
>> To: <bananafish at lists.bway.net>
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:00 PM
>> Subject: bananafish Digest, Vol 27, Issue 6
>>
>>
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>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>>   1. Re: Nine stories (Esme Four)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 08:55:49 -0700 (PDT)
>>> From: Esme Four <esme4 at yahoo.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [Bananafish] Nine stories
>>> To: bananafish list <bananafish at lists.bway.net>
>>> Message-ID: <20061018155549.87966.qmail at web33009.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>>>
>>>
>>> A quick visit to John Wenke's book on Salinger's short
>>> fiction (i'm in the library anyway...)  makes the
>>> issue muddier because Wenke says that Nine Stories
>>> does not "impose the fiction of completed wholeness"
>>> but he does see some "interconnectedness" between the
>>> stories. I think he's suggesting there's a middle
>>> ground where stories play with each other but don't
>>> work like a novel. Also, Wenke says that Salinger
>>> chose the stories "he wished to stand on" and omitted
>>> stories ("Blue Melody," "A Girl I Knew") that
>>> chronologically could have been included.
>>>
>>> Ez
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:26:11 -0400
>> From: "James Rovira" <jamesrovira at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Bananafish] Nine stories
>> To: "bananafish list" <bananafish at lists.bway.net>
>> Message-ID:
>> <411af8540610181626g5b71aa8fw98f0a7f13f732840 at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> Transformation to hope?  Where does Pretty Mouth fit in with that?
>> One of the most cynical short stories I've ever read.  How about
>> Teddy's death at the end and the painful, blunt stupidity of pretty
>> much every character but Teddy?
>>
>> Jim R
>>
>> On 10/18/06, Kenneth <kenny2 at verizon.net> wrote:
>>> Wenke's an ass. Of course there's a pliable interconnection between the
>>> nine
>>> stories, they were written by the same author in a relatively short 
>>> space
>>> of
>>> time. The nine stories show a transformation of philosophy as Salinger
>>> moved
>>> from despondancy to hope.
>>> Now, forget "Blue Melody." Imagine that Salinger had included "A Girl I
>>> Knew" in Nine Stories. By any account, chronologically or by publicarion
>>> date, it would have been the first story in the book and everyone would
>>> have
>>> interpreted "Bananafish" in light of "A Girl I Knew."
>>> Salinger was correct to leave that story out of the collection. It was
>>> either "A Girl I Knew" or "Bananafish."
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
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>>
>> End of bananafish Digest, Vol 27, Issue 7
>> *****************************************
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 11:02:13 -0600
> From: "Yocum, Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE" <daniel.yocum at Peterson.af.mil>
> Subject: Re: [Bananafish] Nine Stories
> To: "bananafish list" <bananafish at lists.bway.net>
> Message-ID:
> <14315E8AAB9EF146B479D7A393CE9D346C2EA2 at ENPEFRML30.frontrange.afspc.ds.af.mil>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> The million dollar question Kenny; Who is better off?  The orange peel
> drifting out of the field of view (and reality?) or ill-dressed Teddy
> ephemerally viewing their passing?  When Teddy our intrepid orange peel
> passes noisily out of view at the edge of our porthole I can hardly
> imagine any hope for the bobbing skin of a fruit passing out of reach of
> our senses.  Who is hoping what?
>
> Daniel
>
>
>
> "Are they better off at the story's end than they were at the begining?"
> Kenneth
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 13:55:19 -0400
> From: "James Rovira" <jamesrovira at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Bananafish] Nine Stories
> To: "bananafish list" <bananafish at lists.bway.net>
> Message-ID:
> <411af8540610191055n23967f18t4454a6efeb7adb2e at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Kenneth--I do remember you saying that about Teddy but must have
> missed your comment about Pretty Mouth...sorry about that.
>
> Even excluding Pretty Mouth from consideration, I still wonder about
> the idea being presented here.  Bananafish as a standalone story seems
> helpless and pointless and above all, hopeless.  Even if the Seymour
> in that story is sensitive, artistic, and not just unhinged he doesn't
> seem to have any other way out.  Uncle Wiggly doesn't seem to offer
> much hope at the end either: the housewife seems trapped and unhappy
> and bound to continue taking that out on her daughter for the rest of
> her life.  Boo Boo's story doesn't seem particularly happy either, but
> this one and the one about the kid on the ball team is a bit faded
> from my memory.
>
> DDS and, definitely, Esme fit your bill quite well.  In fact, I'd say
> Esme is probably the best of all Salinger stories ending with hope and
> an epiphany, and I can see Teddy being a statement of faith of sorts.
>
> Anyway, I would tend to line the stories up into separate categories
> rather than saying they all (except Pretty Mouth) end in hope.
>
> I would say Bananafish, Pretty Mouth, and Uncle Wiggly are stories
> about despair.
>
> DDS, Esme, and Teddy are epiphanic stories--Teddy had his epiphany
> already; the reader has his/her epiphany on Teddy's death.
>
> The other three I think I'll have to reread, but they may be mixed.
> Funny that it's these three I don't have a clear memory of.
>
> Jim R
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 13:27:28 -0600
> From: "Yocum, Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE" <daniel.yocum at Peterson.af.mil>
> Subject: Re: [Bananafish] Nine Stories
> To: "bananafish list" <bananafish at lists.bway.net>
> Message-ID:
> <14315E8AAB9EF146B479D7A393CE9D346C2EA3 at ENPEFRML30.frontrange.afspc.ds.af.mil>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>
> "--Teddy had his epiphany already;" the orange peels?
> Is  " a statement of faith of sorts" the same as hope?  Those in despair
> are surely not without faith but certainly devoid of hope.  And
> epiphanies can exist quite apart from hope.  Was Teddy's hope the hope
> of another spin on the carousel?  To what ends?  Enlightenment?  Teddy's
> path to enlightenment is paved with all those silly apple eaters to
> soften his footfalls.  On Teddy's second spin how can he avoid trampling
> the apple-eaters (clearly the behavior of one who has tasted an apple)
> short of rejecting awareness of them reducing them to the out-of-sight
> orange peels.  They become mere phenomena to tickle his third eye and
> are void in-and-of-themselves.  Is it this null state, Jim, that he
> strives for with hope? The reduction of the fat lady to a fancy devoid
> of substance, a platitude of self flattery?
>
> Daniel
>
>
> ...and I can see Teddy being a statement of faith of sorts.
>
> DDS, Esme, and Teddy are epiphanic stories--Teddy had his epiphany
> already; the reader has his/her epiphany on Teddy's death.
>
>
> Jim R
>
>
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> End of bananafish Digest, Vol 27, Issue 8
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> 